Talk:Mughal Empire

Succession section in infobox

After 1719, over the period of time Hyderabad State, Carnatic Sultanate, Bengal Subah and Oudh State become independent state. So i suggest to include all this state in infobox as this are not some region and have imp area in terms of history. Curious man123 (talk) 15:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems plausible

As long as u could provide the evidence those kingdoms really inherit the administrations from Mughal empire 139.193.50.17 (talk) 17:41, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

All that state i mention have amply references, in there respective article, of being Autonomous in there administration and was considered an independent state in every sphere of administration and were sovereign in terms of decision making. Curious man123 (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok i think its fine. Dont forget to cite the reference to for eaxch of them 139.193.50.17 (talk) 11:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

If there are not rebuttal, i assume we can add that on Succession list Curious man123 (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The mentioned states are not successors, they nominally remained a part of the Empire. The other IP is might be the same editor. Also IP support generally doesn't count as talk consensus. PadFoot2008 16:37, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 There was no such as nominal rule over these states. Aforementioned state have a sovereign rule over the area and there were no say of mughal emperor in the administration, tax collection, going war with anyone and these are the credentials of a sovereignty. Yes, these rulers were paying a sum of annual tribute to the empire but that doesn't undermine the sovereignty of these ruler. And as far as this talk concern, before assuming anything else and making accusations, i never said consensus were established. And if you see my last reply on this talk page, i added these after waiting more than a week of no response assuming there were no rebuttal for this edits. Curious man123 (talk) 06:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have forgotten my opossition then. As I said, get support for your edits from an editor, preferably not an IP or a sock. Also you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "nominal". And lastly, do not proceed to argue with me with baseless arguments; you do not have my consensus. PadFoot2008 14:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008 Well, arguments are involved in establishing consensus, with factual information for which you called mine as baseless. While you havnt shared any citations for voting against those edits. Well, here is the source which explicitly says

Certainly as the example of both Murshid Quli Khan in Bengal and Mubariz Khan in Hyderabad illustrate, the habits and beliefs in Imperial service could have been resurrected among Mughal nobels and technocrats. Instead, during Muhammad Shah's regin, the empire slipped into loosely knit group of regional successor states.

So, calling them as successor state is not something unestablished amongst historians. Curious man123 (talk) 07:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Also pinging @RegentsPark @Vanamonde93 @Kautilya3 for their views on these. Curious man123 (talk) 07:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The Mughal state seems like a textbook case where this parameter can be a bad idea. The state had complex multi-tiered relationships surrounding the imperial core over time, and acquired and lost territory in long arcs of centuries in incredibly complex geopolitical circumstances. My position is that we shouldn't use this parameter at all, since it's simply too complex for the infobox to contain. Remsense诉 08:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it could be seen like that, but we should mention at least the notable state that succeeded because this timeline has placed itself in an important part of subcontinent history. So in my opinion we should mention it. Curious man123 (talk) 09:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I think if we do include it, a very zoomed-out, parsimonious list like what is there currently is ideal. Remsense诉 09:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think skipping Hyderabad State and Bengal State in succession would be a great idea because the former existed as a state even till Indian independence and later was the important region in terms of economy and overall history of the British Empire in India. If we want, we can skip Carnatic as it was only suzerainty under mughals. And also, technically, British Raj was not succeeded from mughals but from the company rule after the Government of India Act 1858, so it can be removed too. Curious man123 (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

pinging @RegentsPark @Kautilya3 for their views about this addition. Curious man123 (talk) 18:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• This is a complicated question but the outcome for us is straightforward. Complicated, because the Mughal empire did fracture into many self-governing states, many of which, while independent, continued to nominally be part of the empire (Bengal being the best example) while a few (the Sikh empire being the best example) were actually independent. However, on Wikipedia the outcome is straightforward and this is why we have the WP:OR policy. If we can't find numerous reliable sources that unambiguously state that xyz state was a successor to the Mughal empire, we can't say it either. In other words, no, we don't include all those states. RegentsPark (comment) 18:39, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  What about Hyderabad state, even after 1857, Hyderabad state existed till 1947. It could be included as a successor state, isnt it? Curious man123 (talk) 19:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Only if multiple reliable sources state that Hyderabad State was a successor state to the Mughal empire. Drawing your own conclusions about the extent of independence of a state is WP:OR.RegentsPark (comment) 20:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  The Hyderabad state was part of British Raj. The only reasonable "successor" to the Mughal Empire is British Raj. If that is not acceptable, we should leave it blank. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  What constitutes a "'reasonable' successor"?

  At a high level, this looks like a singular entity (the Mughal empire) was succeeded by many smaller entities, all of which were later themselves succeeded by another singular entity (the British Raj).

  [Mughal Empire] ->

  [[Hyderabad State],

  [Carnatic Sultanate],

  [Bengal Subah],

  [Oudh State],

  [Maratha Confederacy],

  [Sikh Empire]] ->

  [British Raj]

  I maintain that it's historically inaccurate to simply skip over the intermediary states for the sake of simplicity. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 00:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  It is quite literally how the historiography is broadly summarized. There's a difference between accuracy and precision, you know. This presentation is imprecise but accurate, à la specifying the year someone was born but not the day or hour. Again, our options are this or nothing, as the infobox is not designed to diagram at the level of fidelity you consider appropriate. Remsense诉 00:41, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  If this is an all or nothing scenario, then it may be better to leave the field blank instead.

  Skipping over ~100 years worth of a region's history is neither precise nor accurate. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Then your problem is with each work of history that summarizes by describing the Raj as succeeding the Mughals in dominion over the subcontinent. The more you appreciate the details, the more you generally understand when they need to be withheld. Remsense诉 00:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  And pray tell, why do these details need to be withheld? AnyBurro9312 (talk) 00:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  If I've said it once here, I've said it a dozen times: the purpose of an infobox is to summarize the key facts of a topic at a glance. The less an infobox contains, the better it serves this purpose. It's not our personal spreadsheet to fine-tune and chisel. If it needs a footnote or is in any way counterintuitive for a general audience, then it is simply defective. (And yes, this means most infoboxes are defective. Someday, we will have fixed them all.) If one would like to know more detail, that is what the actual article is for, where such details can be adequately related in prose. Remsense诉 01:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  None of the history is being skipped over. I wish you would look into the discussions above. None of the states like Hyderabad, Marathas, Bengal, etc. claimed sovereignty from Mughal rule, and in 1858 became a part of the British Raj, which formally succeeded Mughal rule. As for the Sikhs, the territory (Punjab) remained a nominal part of the empire (albeit in rebellion), until 1757, when it was ceded to the Durrani Empire by the Mughal emperor. Thus, later, when the Sikh territory became independent, it became independent from the Afghans and not the Mughal empire. PadFoot (talk) 11:44, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  As for the Sikhs, the territory (Punjab) remained a nominal part of the empire (albeit in rebellion), until 1757, when it was ceded to the Durrani Empire by the Mughal emperor.

  Citation Needed

  Thus, later, when the Sikh territory became independent, it became independent from the Afghans and not the Mughal empire.

  Citation Needed

  I really feel like we're splitting hairs over a non-issue... It's not like the Mughals just packed up their bags and let the British "succeed" their rule. I can't speak for the history of the other states, but this was certainly not the case for Punjab. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 08:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  Your closing sentence sheds light on the issue: you're only interested in the Punjab here, not the overall presentation or broad strokes. When consensus is ignored, this is called "tendentious editing". Remsense诉 08:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  I'm concerned with Punjab in so-far as correcting it's exclusion from South Asian history, such as that pertaining to the Mughal Empire.

  In terms of the infobox, I still see no reason why a single field cannot simply include a list of values, like the "Successor" field containing a list of the succeeding empires. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 12:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• @Curious man123, you seem to be absolutely determined to continue your editwarring even after 2 months. Firstly, per WP:NOCONSENSUS you can't change the successor list to Company rule without consensus as British Raj is the long-standing version. Get a consensus for your change first, before change long-standing content. You would see @Kautilya3, as well as other participating editors, also supports that the only successor entity in the succession list should be British Raj. PadFoot (talk) 12:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  @PadFoot2008 I insist you to read this whole discussion and compare it to those edits. This discussion is totally different from what you assume it to be. This was for addition of aforementioned state which i suggested. Clearly it was not supported by fellow editors. So i didnt added that. And as far as your presumably allegations of edit wars are concerns, if you could see here i didnt "added" Company rule in India and removed British Raj, both were included in the succession list for over decade as "long standing version". I simply removed British raj because it didnt succeeded from mughals. British raj started after Government of India Act 1858, in that document, the transfer of power happened between the company authorities and British crown and not between mughal as such which i did explain in that edit. Also, Kautilya3 also said if not agree to it we should keep it blank which you conveniently left out. And "NOConsensus", what you said about based on above chat is for, not to mentioned my suggested edits and not for anything else. Curious man123 (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  The current consensus (in this as well as other discussions) seems to be to only include British Raj, the arguments for which have been provided nearly a million times by me and other editors. PadFoot (talk) 12:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Info Box name of Arabic and Urdu

In Arabic it is Sultanate Al Hindiyyah سلطنة الهندية

In Urdu it is Hindoostan ہندوستان as per poetry of Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar.

We should add this in info box. Abirtel (talk) 08:33, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

No we shouldn't, for the same reason (WP:INDICSCRIPTS) I gave you before. Remsense诉 12:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong here but WP:INDICSCRIPT only applies to Indic scripts, which the Perso-Arabic script is not. All the same, I too think that there is not need to add it to the infobox. PadFoot2008 12:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a script that is used to write an Indian language in India, which is what the spirit of the guideline is about. Remsense诉 13:00, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Then can we go forward for English transliteration? Abirtel (talk) 06:12, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I just don't really know why this would be considered key information to the reader. They are all variations on the name "Hindustan". Remsense诉 12:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Have a look of page East Germany. The entity is non existent.

But but it has different, conventional name and native name other than the title.

It is more fair to add native names of that entity along with title which is an exonym.

Greetings. Abirtel (talk) 04:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

That's one of the worse examples one could pick for several reasons, including that "Deutschland" and "Germany" are etymologically unrelated. It does not seem like you are engaging with the reasons why people may oppose this. I will try to state them clearly:

1. We shouldn't have script versions of names in the infobox, per WP:INDICSCRIPT.
   • I am going to continue to include Perso-Arabic with Brahmic scripts since it seems obviously in line with the point of said guideline—which is many scripts are used in India and it is not feasible to fairly represent them all.
2. The infobox is for key information at a glance. To me, key information includes that the Mughal Empire was called "Hindustan" by its inhabitants.
   • Each proposed name accidentally recreates the problem with the scripts above, just with the specific transliteration instead of script used.
   • This is important: the point is that these particular varieties of what I am judging to be the same name. Everyone called the country Hindustan, but of course it was adapted to the language they spoke.
   • Thus, for an English-speaking readership there is no key information being added, just an ornamental example that creates the same POV problems. We can't render "Hindustan" every single way, nor should we. What is important is that it was called Hindustan.

Remsense诉 04:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Emperor himself is considered a resident in his empire. Hindustani Bad Shahan always resided in Hindustan. Unlike British Indian Empire.

So the epithet of Aurangzeb

and the poetries of Bahadur Shah Zafar

have already passed out that criterion.

More over normal residents also refer that entity as Hindustan. See the Abul Fazl's Ain i Akbari.

Also Foreign documents in that entity's time frame also refer as Hindostan.

Lastly we have enough documents that English speakers referred that entity as Hindostan during the entity's existence.

References

👇 Abirtel (talk) 05:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

You are not listening. Please reread what I've said. Remsense诉 06:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure

Greetings Abirtel (talk) 03:29, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Atleast mention it in the 'top' just like it is mentioned in ottoman empire as turkish empire

and the first persian empire... why not here too?

Also we should change it in the infobox atleast,as its the official name used by their official records WhatAGreatWikiTuber (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope, per all of the reasons already discussed. Remsense ‥ 论 21:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Maratha Confederacy as a successor state

I added the Maratha confederacy as a successor state as most former Mughal territory including Delhi was succeeded by the Marathas. I have also added the British East India Company which also succeeded some Mughal territory. SKAG123 (talk) 04:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

As given, it's totally misleading at a glance. This is why the history should be treated primarily in prose—y'know, in the actual article—and parameters like these in the infobox should be used with care and only if it's not going to mislead the average reader. Remsense诉 04:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

If someone with no prior knowledge read that section as presented, they would come away with a totally inaccurate idea of the political progression in the broad strokes. If something needs nuance or a footnote to explain what it actually means, it shouldn't be in the infobox at all. Remsense诉 05:02, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The coins of the East India Company well into the 1830s were issued in the name of the Mughal emperor. I own a few, one of which I've added to the Company rule in India. Incidentally, the Marathas did the same. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

If political progression is the criteria for a successor then nearly every infobox about Indian empires including the Maurya Empire and Gupta Empire would have to be reorganized. The successor in nearly every other Indian empire recognized by the state that occupies the most territory of the preceding state. SKAG123 (talk) 17:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The point is clarity and immediate coherence. Infoboxes are not meant to look pretty, "full", or support what we consider to be undervalued perspectives; they are meant to communicate key information at a glance. If that is not possible, then unclear communication is not preferable.

As such, in any case:

nearly every infobox about Indian empires including the Maurya Empire and Gupta Empire would have to be reorganized

Correct; see also WP:OTHERCONTENT. Fixing the huge quantity of defective infoboxes onwiki is a big task—sometimes it feels Sisyphean. Please help out if you can. Remsense诉 17:37, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

That would be difficult as formal succession didn’t occur in most of Indian history. Most empires were conquered by others and weren’t formally succeeded. Other articles such as German Confederation also list various successors of the territory of the former state in this manner.

In this article, most territory under the Delhi sultanate was conquered by the Mughal empire therefore it is listed as a predecessor. Most former Mughal territory was succeeded by the Maratha Confederacy. There was not formal succession in either situation.

I don’t see an issue with using this criteria as most similar infoboxes have been have been stable in this way for a while. SKAG123 (talk) 19:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point I'm making, which is that simplification or omission is preferable to unexplained, misleading, or contrived presentation. The "formality" or "officialness" doesn't matter as long as "succession" is accurate to how sources describe a political situation. And I wish I did not have to reiterate that longevity is not a good excuse for something to be defective: mere longevity is the weakest form of consensus, as it only proves that nobody noticed or went out of their way to fix something. If something is confusing or defective, it should be remedied. Cf. WP:BEENHERE.

To be clear, I'm only interested in discussing this article and will not be bogged down in extended discussions about other articles: my entire point is that you can't just lean on what other articles say per WP:OTHERCONTENT. I'm saying they should likely be remedied as their presentation is confusing to the average reader, but I'm not actually on that project right now myself. Remsense诉 19:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

the issue is that political succession did not occur in most Indian empires as one empire typically just occupied another. The Mughals never succeeded the Delhi sultanate as Babur never became the sultan of Delhi.The Mughal empire did politically succeed the Timurad empire, however they had no power at the time. Similarly the Marathas never officially succeeded Mughals instead subdued them. It is inaccurate to say that the Mughal Empire was solely succeed by the British raj as the emperor has no real power in 1857 and was a puppet under the Maratha Confederacy and later East India Company.

Therefore Im proposing this format

predessor 1 - Delhi sultanate (as most former Mughal was under the Delhi sultans prior)

prodessor 2 - Timurad Empire (as the Mughal empire did politically succeed the Timurads)

succesor 1 - Maratha Confederacy(as most former Mughal territory was captured my the Maratha Confederacy and the Mughal emperor in 1758 onwards was a subordinate of the Maratha Confederacy)

succesor 2 - East India Company (as the Mughal emperor in 1803 had control of the city of Delhi as a subordinate under the East India Company)

successor 3 - British Raj ( as the British raj politically succeed the Mughal emperor however the emperor has no real power at the time)

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks SKAG123 (talk) 19:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Just leave these fields blank, except perhaps for the Delhi sultanate. It is all far too complicated for an infobox, and takes up too much space. There are also the Jats, Sikhs, Afghans, Persians .... Johnbod (talk) 19:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Johnbod. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Seahawk-2023 Discuss here please rather than edit warring, and please use edit summaries when you edit. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 16:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The only successor was British Raj. Company rule and the Maratha Confederacy both were under the suzerainty of the Mughal emperors. Your claim that the Mughal emperor was subordinate to anyone is unsourced (the Marathas always acknowledged Mughal suzerainty) and has been discussed a million times in the Maratha page as well as here. PadFoot (talk) 07:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The issue, for the third time, is that it is not clear what is being communicated to the average reader. This isn't our personal research project where we try to fill out all the tables—it's an encyclopedia, and readers are meant to be able to quickly understand the key facts of a topic by glancing at the infobox. This way of using it fails those readers. As @Johnbod said (and also I did several times above): when we can't communicate facts intuitively in the infobox, we shall not communicate anything, and instead treat them with the space and nuance they deserve in the article body. Remsense诉 07:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Mughal "suzerainty" over anyone was wholly nominal by 1720 or earlier, and it would be misleading to recognize it (if only by implication) in the infobox. Johnbod (talk) 11:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

any person with no idea of indian history will casually miss 200 years of indian history, we should come up with a solution for successor problem WhatAGreatWikiTuber (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

We say in the Early Modern History section of the India page,

Newly coherent social groups in northern and western India, such as the Marathas, the Rajput, and the Sikhs, gained military and governing ambitions during Mughal rule, which, through collaboration or adversity, gave them both recognition and military experience. Expanding commerce during Mughal rule gave rise to new Indian commercial and political elites along the coasts of southern and eastern India. As the empire disintegrated, many among these elites were able to seek and control their own affairs.

I haven't really read the discussion above carefully, but a successor state, as far as I'm aware, is a concept that became current quite a bit after the Mughals. To put it differently, if "Hindustan" under the Mughals had been a member of the UN, it is unlikely that the different regional elites mentioned in green above would have been able to call themselves "Hindustan," at the UN were they to seek membership. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:46, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Sikh Misls as a successor state (of Punjab)

Hi,

I had previously added the Sikh Misls and the later Sikh Empire in the "Succeeded by" list of the Infobox, and saw that it was removed... Can anyone explain why?

I see that a similar question was raised for the Maratha Confederacy, however, I don't believe the same arguments would work in the case of the Sikh Misls... AnyBurro9312 (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Why don't you think analogous arguments would apply? Remsense诉 07:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Because it's misleading to suggest that the end of the Mughal Empire heralded the introduction of the British Rule over India when there's roughly a whole century's worth of intermediary history that's getting skipped over.

I read your perspective on the matter of the infobox and how it would be confusing to the layman reader, but at the risk of "summarizing" history for the infobox, the article risks being historical inaccurate when it suggests that the British rule "succeeded" the Mughals. In doing so, it completely undermines the rise and fall of Sikh rule over Punjab.

The other issue is that the coin argument doesn't apply in the matter of the Sikh Misls because coins minted during this time featured either Sikh religious figures or writing in the Punjabi language rather than any of the former Mughals.

The infobox ought to list out the various territories that rose to power after the Mughals in the name of accuracy. If a layman reader is confused, then that's fine, because history is often confusing. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I have not myself made any "coin argument".

Because it's misleading to suggest that the end of the Mughal Empire heralded the introduction of the British Rule over India when there's roughly a whole century's worth of intermediary history that's getting skipped over.

In the broadest strokes, this was the case. The decline of the Mughals during the 18th and 19th centuries is a story featuring many important polities and events filling the vacuum during what was ultimately a broad Mughal → British transition, but the Sikh Empire is broadly analogous to the Marathas here, as it was dissolved into the Raj before the end of Company rule following a longer campaign to achieve that result.

The infobox ought to list out the various territories that rose to power after the Mughals in the name of accuracy.

No it should not. That is far too complex a task, and an infobox cannot contain that. If it does, it is a deluge of contextless, conflationary information that is useless for a general audience, as the arcane diagram is unexplained to them even excusing its size.

We have an article to properly talk about these things! Read the article! Remsense诉 00:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

but the Sikh Empire is broadly analogous to the Marathas here, as it was dissolved into the Raj before the end of Company rule following a longer campaign to achieve that result.

I don't dispute that the Sikh Empire was annexed into the British rule, since this is a matter of history. However it very clearly succeeded Mughal rule over Punjab for ~100 years, therefore it is a successor to the Mughal Empire (at least over Punjab).

That is far too complex a task, and an infobox cannot contain that. If it does, it is a deluge of contextless, conflationary information that is useless for a general audience, as the arcane diagram is unexplained to them even excusing its size.

Out of curiosity, why is this "too complex of a task"? It's just appending a name to a series of links? In terms of usefulness for a general audience, I fail to see how you've arrived at the conclusion that the layman reader would find this information "useless". And if this is a problem of a lack of proper explanation, then why can't the complexity of the matter be explained? I doubt we're the first people to realize the complexity of post-Mughal empires in South Asia. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 12:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Did Sikh rule fully separated from Hindostan or it accepted the Delhi rulers as ceremonial head? Jabirttk351 (talk) 10:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you define "Hindostan" in this context?

The answer is likely no because my use of "Sikh rule" refers to the "Sarkar-e-Khalsa", which would have viewed Lahore as it's capital and Maharaja Ranjit Singh (and his successors) as their rules instead. AnyBurro9312 (talk) 11:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Indostan, India

I am *not* trying to revive the 'Dominion of Hindustan' Topic Thread.

I am simply putting forward that we should mention other names like 'India' , 'Indostan' in the Name Section of the Mughal Empire.

Source : Countless maps from 17–18th century, can send if required. WhatAGreatWikiTuber (talk) 12:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Maps are not reliable sources. You can add names that are well sourced, preferably with the name explicitly stated as an alternative name (e.g., "the Mughal empire was called xxx by yyy"). Bear in mind that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information (WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE). RegentsPark (comment) 15:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That's nonsense of course. Gold standards are not excuses for omitting entirely relevant information and context that our readers need. The maps are reliable sources, particularly official ones of wide circulation. They just have to be used appropriately and the correct WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. The Mughal Empire being called "India" in certain periods falls under WP:BLUE, "Hindustan" likewise. "Indostan" is probably uncommon enough that it's not worth including here per WP:UNDUE/WP:NOTABILITY—not WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE, which has to do with people mistakenly dumping entire works that belong at Wikisource or that are still under copyright and is irrelevant here—now that we can use Wikidata entries to park the full laundry lists of alternative names and spellings like "Hindoostan". (If it's challenged there but accurate, it may become necessary to source it here in an appropriate footnote or similar treatment.) — LlywelynII 08:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Other capitals

Speaking of covering more ground, either this article or one split off and linked from here needs to handle the full list of capitals, to the extent it's known. I get that we have the four major ones, but if it was a regular thing to have additional capitals at times, we should start compiling that information somewhere WP:READERS can get to it. I've got 17th century explorers talking about Danapur as the metropolis of the country and no idea from this article whether that's accurate, a mistake on their part for Agra, a mistake on our part where the capital was within modern Agra but not actually in the Agra of the period, or something else. Yes, the full list of capitals notable and not "indiscriminate", although it might be WP:UNDUE bloat here in the main article once the list gets long enough. — LlywelynII 08:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

In other news, this excellent Quora response has some issues with our not-very-well-sourced claim that Kabul was a regular summer capital for an extended period. — LlywelynII 10:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The whole notion of a capital city for the empire (pre-say 1710) is probably mistaken. As with many states in this and earlier periods, the "capital" was where the monarch & his rather small bunch of administrators happened to be. Only as the state apparatus grew, and could not trail after the monarch everywhere, does the concept becomes useful. Johnbod (talk) 15:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I see we have Itinerant court - rather weak on Asia. Johnbod (talk) 15:12, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

"uplands of the Deccan Plateau"

The lead says that the empire stretched south to the "uplands of the Deccan Plateau", yet this is contradictory to the map, which puts the southern boundary much further south than the limits of the Deccan, at the same latitude as Nagapattinam. The source used for the claim [1] is specifically talking about the territory held under Akbar rather than the "peak" (i.e. ~1700, Aurangzeb) described in the lead. What should the lead say the southern boundary was? Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@RegentsPark @PadFoot2008 thoughts? I have not been able to find any sources describing the boundaries of the empire under Aurangzeb. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 08:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche, perhaps we can rephrase it to to say:

lower reaches of the Deccan peninsula in South India.

instead of:

uplands of the Deccan plateau in South India.

PadFoot (talk) 11:05, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Flag

Flags of the Mughal Empire ,it shows multiple historical paintings from Mughal era with flags being represented,aren't these painting enough source for flags? JingJongPascal (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. Paintings capture events at a moment in time and we have no idea what the significance of a particular flag in a painting was or even if it was something imagined by the painter rather than actually used as a representative flag. What we need is a reliable source from a historian that states, unequivocally, that a particular flag was the representative flag of a ruler, state, or dynasty. RegentsPark (comment) 00:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You can search the archives of this talk page to see why a flag is not displayed. Remsense ‥ 论 00:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Multiple Maps

I have added another map with switcher

The peak extent will still be the default one tho JingJongPascal (talk) 18:21, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I know you didn't realize since you're on mobile, but your edit totally broke the article display on desktop. I also do not think two maps are necessary. Consider asking first next time. Remsense ‥ 论 00:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I added multiple Maps as Ottoman Empire

Also had multiple depicting their change in territories, I didn't realise the article broke on desktop JingJongPascal (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)